17. It was only four yards short of the all-time NFL record. So the protestant reformers like Luther and Zwingly, did they believe Mary was a perpetual Virgin and were they committed to Sola scriptura? So Ill send you a link, you could put that [inaudible 01:35:07] as well. Juan R. Vlez One, the sole non-falsifiable and fallible authority of the Roman Catholic church, sola ecclesia, which teaches these Marian Dogmas versus a sole infallible authority of scripture sola scriptura, which contradicts them. So Steve would probably say that, Well, Jesus has sins, but there our sins, not his sins. Okay. Steven Pinker is a scientist and public intellectual, provocative, informed and informative. Rather, biblically the church is every individual sinner who God has redeemed out of the world to be a slave to our master and Lord Jesus Christ, every individual sinner. And at basic, psalms 69, if you continue reading, it says that the Messiah was taking on the reproach of other people. I mean, focusing on it saying that they had the same mothers is a little bit of a strawman because thats an argument that youre using which I feel is really irrelevant because you could use the argument that Jesus had younger half sisters because theres nothing in that passage to eliminate that possibility. And the issue too, is it discusses the word ipsum as opposed to ipsa, when it says from Genesis 15, if she will bruise the heel, or his heel will be versed, however its actually worded. Well, the answer to the question needs to be in relation to applying it elsewhere in scripture because theres a lot of people that are mentioned in scripture that doesnt say that they had any children. Its referring back to 2 Samuel when its talking about the ark being moved to Jerusalem. Its [inaudible 01:14:35]. But anyways, Im going to come back to that. So before I do that, let me explain what this debate is not about. He currently resides in Bradenton, Florida, with his wife Kelly and their four daughters. But while infants may not have committed a personal sin, they still need salvation in Christ because they inherited original sin. It uses [Greek 00:37:34], not [Greek 00:37:36]. So idolatry, according to the catechism and paragraph 2113 says idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. These later Marian developments were not like Orthodox dogmas and doctrines of Christ that developed, such as his divinity, his dual natures and wills, and the Trinity whose concepts are unmistakably spelled out in Scripture, either explicitly or implicitly. By: Rochester Business Journal Staff By Scott Pitoniak May 19, 2017. So ultimately Steve has the burden here to show that the Marian dogmas contradict scripture, and hes brought up a lot of points. At what point does Marion devotion or veneration turn into idolatry? We discuss his books, with the most popular being Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller, and well as leading Bible studies in his home. Yeah, no, fair enough. Dr. Tony Costa and Steve Christie, The Issue of Canon and Sola Scriptura - The Council, Presuppositional Apologetics Round Up: Third week of August 2021 | The Domain for Truth, Response to Sam Shamoun's post Purgatory debate recap of Dr. Michael Brown against William Albrecht - The Council, Responding to Gary Michuta's Abel to Zechariah Counter-Arguments with Steve Christie & Paul - The Council, The Marian Dogmas Contradict Scripture, Trent Horn Vs. Steve Christie - The Council, Necessitarianism: Conceive of the Possibilities. These would be children from his previous marriage, making them adoptive brothers and sisters, and as such, they would be fully Jesuss brother and sister, the full use of the word adelphos. Hebrews 11:5 states, By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death. And he was not found because God took him up. Mary doesnt take the place of Christ. The word paraphrase very frequently provides adequate description of the relationship (Introducing the Apocrypha, 22). So as far as I know, I dont know offhand but that doesnt mean that its not being used. Man commits idolatry when he honors and reviews a creature in place of God. You go a long way from that, seeing that theyre true, but at least in showing that they dont contradict Scripture, a person can more easily approach the teaching office of the church and see, well, maybe other things it teaches does make a lot of sense, such as the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, the existence of an enduring Magisterium, baptismal regeneration, and other things like that. My colleague, Tim Staples, has written an entire book on Mary called Behold Your Mother. He rejected that dogma, though he did not believe Matthew 1:25 proved it. Jesus became sin, thats why he died. So whenever you want to begin, I will click the 10 minute button. No, the Bible never says Mary gave birth to anyone else and no one else is called a son or daughter of Mary. We have to remember that. The fact that Mary died doesnt prove that she committed a sin any more than the fact that Jesus died does not prove that he inherited sin or committed a sin. Indeed, the Talmudic tract Sanhedrin 100B refers to rabbis with-drawing Sirach, or declaring it to be no longer inspired and thus withdrawn from synagogue reading. So I agree with that. So if the Bible taught that every human Im sorry that every woman gave birth to children or that every person without exception commits personal sins or that no one has ever been assumed into heaven, then the dogmas would be falsified. It would be an evidence chip, if you will, for it that we have to balance with other evidences. Because they have the same father but different mothers. And just so everybody knows, youre welcome to interrupt him or move the conversation along as you see fit. So offering sacrifices to Mary would be idolatry. So for an ancient Greek speaking person, why would adelphe have a narrower semantic range than adelphos when the only difference here is the gender? But the problem with this argument is that it says in Luke 2:22-24, that its offered for their purification. Yeah. Im sure Trent doesnt think that that man is immaculate conceived, because there are those at Catholic Answers and elsewhere who thinks [Greek 00:48:09] or [Greek 00:48:11] eight means that they were always in a state of grace, meaning that Mary was sinless. And I think we both agree on the assumption, Steve said it the Bible does not say Mary was not assumed into heaven, and in order to try to show her assumption would contradict it, we had to use a very speculative argument about that she did not need to be rescued from death, even though that doesnt apply to every case where God would take someone into heaven. So if Mary died, which the dogma, the bodily assumption in 1950 strongly implies, this demonstrates Mary inherited original sin from Adam. Before the 2001 regular season, Christie was placed on IR from an offseason groin injury having accuracy problems during the preseason being replaced by Jake Arians prior to the start of the season. Christie is currently President of Relative Goal Sports and Entertainment Management LLC., certified as a Canadian Football League contract advisor and has represented numerous musical acts in both the United States and Scotland. Enoch and Elijah would be an example. First, this debate is not about whether the Bible teaches the Marian Dogmas or even if the evidence shows that theyre true. The same in any intellectual study. Youre talking about giving someone salvation prior to their sins? Also the Greek word for brother, its not always you to represent full brothers. Since this dogma allows for her to have died before being taken up to heaven, it contradicts the purpose of a biblical assumption. Because I know every one of these points you could go back and forth on a lot, but lets try to keep it to just the main response and then a response to the response. Hes referred to the son of Joseph in Johns gospel. I will click the four-minute mark. This is really great. This is known as [inaudible 01:09:50]. Geoffrey Stephen "Steve" Christie (born November 13, 1967) is a former Canadian American football placekicker in the National Football League, who, as a member Steve Christie - Nangungunang mga yugto ng podcast So my quick mini rebuttal. If she was immaculately conceived, she would not have bodily assumed needed to be rescued from death because thats the purpose of assumption, which we see from Enoch and Elijah. Im really enjoying this. In order to show these dogma contradict scripture, Steve must do one of two things. As Christians, we should not believe things that contradict the Word of God. Marys special, unique status and her being mother of God is something throughout the fathers, definitely. Okay. I mean, its not a good proof text to use. But it doesnt demand for that though. Originally from Aberdeen ,now residing in Edinburgh. A Response to Pastor Chip Thornton's Anti-Catholic Newspaper Article. Look, weve got 737 people watching and only 492 likes. Prototokos, I dont have a problem with the term, meaning first out of the womb, but in Luke chapter two versus 22 to 23, this is a different event. Trent Horn vs Steve Christie Apocrypha Debate Recap & Discussion, Our Friend Steve Christie Gets Mitch Pacwa to Admit Abel to Zechariah Is About the Canon, Conversation On The Old Testament Canon With Steve ChristiePart 1, Conversation On The Old Testament Canon Part 2 with Steve Christie, Conversation On The Old Testament Canon with Steve ChristiePart 3, Gary Michutas Apocrypha Apocalypse Challenge ANSWERED! And in the new Testament, the specific Greek word for savior is used about two dozen in times, and every time that its used in scripture, in the New Testament, it always refers to God or Jesus being a savior of salvation and saving someone from sins, which is why I brought up Acts chapter five and The Epistle of Titus. Okay. Rather, this counterfeit Mary developed over several centuries based on false typologies, which conflict with Scripture, no different than what Mormons, Jehovahs Witnesses, and Muslims have done with Jesus. It is often said, in order to detect a counterfeit bill, you dont study other counterfeit bills, but instead you first study the genuine thing, then youll be able to detect a counterfeit easily. So Steves defending the affirmative. If anything like the parents hes a good kid, but I cant imagine by the age of seven that his oldest child hasnt sinned one time. He offered them in the debate. Do you know him? Luke 2:7 describes Jesus as the firstborn of Mary, although the Greek word [foreign language 00:04:11] translated firstborn, can indicate firstborn opening the womb and is used this way in the New Testament. My first book is about not really of us, why do children of Christian parents abandon the faith? The wrongs I have done are not hidden from thee. But Jesus did not do any wrong. United States. He is resolutely atheist, but not of the 'religion poisons everything' variety; he thinks institutional religion - while based on an entirely false premise - can evolve and be a force for good. One, ones natural sister, such as a sister of the same parents or a half sister or, two, a believing sister, such as a Christian sister. And again, just to give an example in the Septuagint, in the Book of Sirach, which is inspired for Trent, but its not inspired for me, it uses the Greek word [Greek 00:47:52], which is a masculine form of [Greek 00:47:55] when it says, Hail Mary, full of grace. And its used to describe a man who is full of grace. Im surprised that you would pick Aquinas since he did not believe in the immaculate conception of Mary. For example, it may be a reference to the minor prophet Zechariah (who was killed in the temple according to the Targum on Lamentations) as opposed to the Zechariah in Chronicles. But that is simply not the case. Steve, whenever you want to begin, Ill click the timer. [3] Christie was activated to play on July 7, 2007 against the Hamilton Tiger-Cats. So that doesnt take away from what an errancy is about, which is Scriptures specific affirmations related to what it affirms. Really enjoying this. I agree with what that person teaches. If you guys could try to keep your answers to about two minutes each. Were going to talk about the dogmas of the faith. I do remember in that debate with James White five years ago, saying, Our theology should come from the Bible, not the Bible from our theology. And I was not arguing for Sola Scriptura. Did the reformers believe every Catholic truth? In his 15 NFL seasons, Christie converted 336 of 431 (77%) field goals and 468 of 473 (98%) extra points, giving him a total of 1,476 points. Of course, but how do we know that Andrew is also the son of Jonah? And Catholics are very clear, we do not believe anything that contradicts what we find in sacred Scripture. They can live out the gospel teaching in their unique holy family. Im not sure what your question is. When it comes to savior, I would just challenge Steve, where does Luke 1:46 through 48 talk about sin? Why Is the Protestant Bible Shorter than the Catholic Bible? Okay. Okay. As Trent Horn shared with Matt Fradd on Sips with Aquinas Ooh. For forty years he has been a fixture in the firmament of the apologetic pantheon, lecturing worldwide and publishing popular books like The End of Reason and Jesus Among Other Gods. No. Hofstra University, +1 more. The word savior is used consistently in the New Testament to refer to a savior of sins. We discovered it, carbon-dated it, thats the cross Jesus died on. Offering a sacrifice to Mary would be an inappropriate. So were not talking about translations of the Bible. This passage also contradicts the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary since Jesus mother was with Jesus brothers in verses 20 to 21, when they accused him of being out of his senses. The connection of apologetics with evangelism is best summarized by Oxford theologian Alister E. McGrath: " Can you give one example in the New Testament where it describes God or Jesus being a preemptive savior instead of a redemptive redeeming savior? They were both Catholic. David K. Clark - apologist with notable books; teaches at Bethel Seminary. However, he should have cited what Jimmy said immediately before that quote: It wasnt entirely clear to every group of Jews exactly what books belonged in the Old Testament., Akin goes on to write that Jesus and the apostles went a bit further than the Pharisees on the issue of the canon. And I really appreciate that you are arguing against Catholicism based on what she teaches, right? I thought about writing a book on-. Even if Mary were speaking of salvation from sin, she may be speaking about God, preventing her from sinning and saving her in that way, like we might say how a doctor saved someone from a disease by vaccinating them, rather than by giving them a pill to cure them after the infection. They shall mourn for him as one mourns for an only child and weep bitterly over him as one weeps over a firstborn. So the terms can both be used in interchangeably in that respect. Hallow.com/mattfred, click the link in the description below. Other doctors like Ambrose, Augustine, Irenaeus and others in the early church, like Tertullian, Origen, Hillary of Portier, and seven popes believed Mary was either conceived in sin or committed acts of personal sin, including Thomas Aquinas, as late as the 13th century. The Greek root is used in Matthew 1:21 to describe Jesus who will save his people from their sins. Oh, wow. Steve Christie also has his own website. Because the details about whether she died or not have not been given to us in the deposit of faith, that particular fact has not been given to us. From 1992 to 2000, Christie kicked for Buffalo. But I think Steve would agree the word adelphos typically means a person has the same biological father and mother and of course, Steve doesnt believe that because he believes Jesus has no biological father. And I can honestly say the same thing about Mary especially with the oppression of Rome and the Jews especially after Jesus was born. Should it be included in the Old Testament canon? In this debate, originally hosted at Pints with Aquinas, Trent Horn engages Protestant apologist Steve Christie on the question of whether the Marian dogmas contradict what is taught in sacred scripture. No one else ever before in the history of salvation had been asked to do something like that. So some of this has been answered, but he seems like hes asking, could a Protestant accept some of these Marian dogma and remain a Protestant and someone that you would fellowship with? You can also reach me on Facebook, Twitter and YouTube. Since Christians are not bound to accept their ideas about what Scripture meant regarding the messiah or the need to follow the Mosaic law, we arent bound to follow what they considered to be the boundaries of the canon, which was disputed even among the Pharisees. Steve Christie joins me this week to discuss how he got started in apologetics and why it is important. The 33-yard field goal came with just :35 to play, giving the Bills a win over the Titans, who had knocked them out of the playoffs the year before. In his recent book Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller, Protestant apologist Steve Christie claims that all Christians should accept the Protestant Old Testament canon and reject the deuterocanonical books of Judith, Tobit, Baruch, Wisdom, Sirach, 1and 2 Maccabees, and portions of Daniel and Esther. Steve Hays (1959-2020) We just learned that Steve Hays has passed away in a hospice. As I said before, thats not what were debating today. I will take away their sins. Though a mere chip-shot, from 32 yards, the three-pointer enabled . Well, the Septuagint was a Greek translation that was finished around 134 BC. And that Greek grammarians and New Testament scholars simply disagree with Steve on this point, hes just wrong about the semantic range of that word. Regarding the Immaculate Conception, the other Pope declared, but not infallibly, the most blessed Virgin Mary in the first instance of her conception was preserved free from all stain of original sin is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to believe firmly and constantly by all the faithful. Trent made the comment about the word until thats used in Second Samuel, but it uses the word [Greek 00:37:31], not [Greek 00:37:31]. Or are they all good? Origen and Melito present lists that modern scholars recognize are of Jewish origin and so they lack the deuterocanonicals, but even these lists are missing books such as Esther and Lamentations. Should we baptize babies or not? Well, I would say that it contradicts it because if she was indeed sinless, Mary would not have been bodily assumed into heaven for the reasons I stated in my opening statement. No, Bauckham talks about this in his article that in some context, Jesus would be referred to as the son of Joseph, especially among those who were not familiar with his family life in Nazareth. Locals is a free speech platform. Geoffrey Stephen "Steve" Christie (born November 13, 1967) is a former Canadian American football placekicker in the National Football League, who, as a member Steve Christie - Top podcast episodes After Marys days of purification were completed in Luke two, she made burnt and sin offerings, which according to Leviticus 12 was required of mothers to make atonement or to cover their sins, which Mary would not need to do if she were immaculately conceived. Though, I think that is a salvation issue actually. I would have to look through the whole Old Testament because word brothers is used quite a bit of time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now in the Septuagint as well as in the New Testament, adelphos is used to talk about people who have the same father but different mothers. If you want to go more into that, my book, The Case for Catholicism has a chapter on the immaculate conception. It is forbidden to any man to change this, to oppose and counter it. It is not mentioned in any book of the Bible, protocanonical or deuterocanonical, nor in any ancient nonbiblical witnesses such as Josephus or Philo. Did they believe that the doctrine of Marys perpetual virginity violated the authority of scripture? Its a good question. In his study of Josephus and the Hebrew canon, Jonathan Campbell points out that the roughly contemporaneous text of 4 Ezra assumes the existence of ninety-four Jewish scriptures. Okay. By utilizing electric acoustic guitar and digitally recorded performance tracks with the technology of digital harmony Steve performs your favorite hits, "flawlessly". Thats kind of hard. That the one being assumed would not see death and so their corpse would not be found as the case for both Enoch and Elijah demonstrates. . Take your time there, Steve, getting yourself ready. Sure. And then Steve, because Steve, I can tell that youve really wrestled with what Catholicism teaches. According to Old Testament scholar Otto Kaiser, the deuterocanonical books presuppose the validity of the Law and the Prophets and also utilize the Ketubim or Writings collection which was, at the time, still in the process of formation and not yet closed (Old Testament Apocrypha, 2). And as far as Psalm 69, if you-. Defenders Media provides media solutions to an alliance of evangelistic ministries that defend the Christian worldview. Like for example, how does one reconcile the following statements, I am the way, the truth, and the life, from our blessed Lord in John 14:6 and Hail holy queen, mother of mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope, emphasis on both claiming to be our life? Thats all it is. So Im well aware of that. So Im going to cover four of them. An interview of Gary Habermas with Steve Forkin of No Apologies; Video Link . Morgan Stanley, +4 more. The Protoevangelium of James does talk about Mary being very mature for her age, walking at an early age, for example, and being precocious. So whether we are discussing the Marian dogmas, the papacy, the purpose of baptism or communion, or the biblical Canon, the real authority behind these debates is whether you trust in the sufficiency of God [inaudible 01:52:23] Scripture to reel itself to you or to the Magisterium, which often conflicts with it. Finally, lets look at the dogma of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary. And this is what I did in the opening statement. [inaudible 01:22:12] Thats fine. in Aberdeen Scotland., The United Kingdom Just as we have born the image of the earthy we, which includes Mary, we will also bear the image of the heavenly. We and also, which again includes Mary. Steve Cable, April 18, 2022 Steve Cable explains how the apostle Peter showed himself to be a master apologist, not the bumbling, brash fisherman he used to be. I think it will be. "For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be" - Psalm 139: 13,16 I always wanted to have five kids, but I met and married my A protestant scholar Craig keener says neither the title favored or graced one nor the promise the Lord is with you was traditional in greetings even if the person had been of status. We receive no funding from the institutional Church and rely entirely on your generosity to sustain this website with trustworthy, accessible content. We discuss his books, with the most popular being Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller, and well as leading Bible studies in his home. And Steve has said, Well, we know theres an exception because the Bible says that Jesus is the exception. So clearly, then, that means the Bible can make universal statements, but sources of divine revelation can give us those exceptions. It can only mean figurative sister or biological sister. This is something Paul gave as concession, not as command to others. What he lived by, he died by. And they did not want people following them. Steve. Primary meaning of the word adelphos can either refer to having the same biological mother or father. In 2014, Christie was diagnosed with colorectal cancer. . My wife and I literally were listening to Scott Hahn reading the Book of Romans as we were going as sleep last night. First, when it comes to adelphos and adelphi, I think Steve would agree with me that, in general, what that word means in scripture is that you have the same biological mother and father. And I showed counter examples to that in each of those cases. As a matter of fact, if you want to, immediately after this debate, I made two videos. [foreign language 00:26:34] was also used in literature that existed at roughly the same time period as the New Testament. My argument is how the word adelphos is specifically is used to the New Testament Greek. I do. What plunged mankind into the fall was Adams sin, which resulted in Adam and by extension all of mankind, including Mary, physically dying. Christian apologist accused of denying fundamental truths. I would stress that we look at what the church teaches in its magisterial teachings about Mary and her important role in salvation. And I think thats something that we do find. In fact, the authors of these texts, such as Sirach, described writing down Gods wisdom to indicate they were writing Scripture, which wouldnt make sense if they thought the canon was closed. But Mary only had a human nature and a sinful nature. For example, a Mormon dogma that says that Jesus is not God contradicts scripture explicitly, such as in John 20:28, when Thomas sees Jesus and calls him, My Lord and my God. Implicitly would be liberal Catholics and Protestants who condone abortion, which contradicts scripture stating that life begins at conception, and scripture condemns the shedding of innocent blood. Finally, this debate is not about Marian doctrines or theological opinions about Mary. He became sinner. Finally, Christies Pharisee argument for the Protestant Old Testament canon fails because its logic can be used to make a similar argument for a completely different Old Testament canon. On the signing, Christie pointed out that one reason for joining the team was "basically doing Michael (Clemons) a favour" as a former college teammate and that it was tentatively for one game. Though, I will say the Septuagint was completed only within a few centuries, possibly even one century, by the time of Jesus crucifixion. 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